This is an update of this article from June 2023. We now know more, and the Post Office’s victims are receiving an even worse deal than we thought.
It was this Daily Mail story that made me realise something was deeply wrong with the Post Office’s compensation scheme. And, in particular:
How could that happen? How did Mr Duff end up with only £8,000? Indeed how come one postmaster applied for only £15.75 compensation? I didn’t forget to add “thousand” or “million” – the Post Office revealed to me1See below, and the Post Office’s response to allegation number 2 that they received one application for £15.75 compensation. That indicates a very serious problem with the application process.
This article answers that question. Our conclusion: the Post Office has adopted a strategy to minimise compensation for the worst miscarriage of justice in British history. It does that by minimising the initial claim postmasters are making. The Post Office can then point to all the procedures in place to ensure claims are handled fairly – but the unfairness happened right at the start.
Here’s how.
The background
Between 2000 and 20172I have previously written that this was between 2000 and 2013, but I have now spoken to postmasters who faced false allegations of theft as late as 2017, the Post Office falsely accused thousands of postmasters of theft. Some went to prison. Many had their assets seized and their reputations shredded. Marriages and livelihoods were destroyed, and at least 61 have now died, never receiving an apology or recompense. These prosecutions were on the basis of financial discrepancies reported by a computer accounting system called Horizon. The Post Office knew from the start that there were serious problems with the Horizon system, but covered it up, and proceeded with aggressive prosecutions based on unreliable data. It’s beyond shocking, and there should be criminal prosecutions of those responsible.
The Post Office then spent years fighting compensation claims in the courts, using every trick in the book to draw things out as long as possible – even a completely meritless application for a judge to recuse himself on the basis he was biased, which the Court of Appeal described as “without substance”, “fatally flawed” and “absurd”.
Now, finally – eleven years after the Post Office almost certainly knew 3Although important people at the Post Office surely knew well before 2013, albeit that the details of “who knew what when” remain unclear that it had wronged these people, it is paying compensation – but in a way that guarantees the wronged postmasters receive derisory sums. This article focuses on the “historical shortfall scheme” (HSS), which compensates postmasters who were not actually convicted of theft, but who were accused of theft, lost their jobs, threatened with prosecution, and forced to repay cash “shortfalls” which in fact were entirely fictitious. There are about 2,750 HSS claims. The average settlement payment so far is only £32,0004The HSS scheme doesn’t cover the 980+ postmasters who were wrongly convicted, or the 555 postmasters who claimed under the Bates group litigation order (GLO) – and there are certainly others who haven’t claimed under any scheme. So the total number of affected postmasters is unknown, but certainly over 4,000
The Post Office say this about the HSS claim process:
I would invite anyone to read the below and then return to this paragraph, and decide for themselves how “simple and user friendly” the scheme is, and how fair and reasonable it is for the Post Office to not cover the legal costs of applying.
There are nine elements of the HSS scheme that in my view amount to a strategy to minimise the initial HSS claims. In other circumstances, I would willingly accept that this was a series of good faith mistakes; but given the history here, I don’t think we can assume good faith.
Here are the nine:
1. Force postmasters (mostly in their 70s and 80s) to go through a complex legal process.
The Post Office could have proactively investigated what had happened, identified and interviewed the people it wronged, and proposed full and fair compensation. After all, it’s the Post Office that required postmasters to repay the phoney “shortfalls” – it surely has at least some data that it could be using to estimate the compensation due, and “pre-complete” forms for postmasters.
But instead, the postmasters are required to complete a lengthy and very legal form, with the Post Office providing absolutely nothing in the way of information or assistance. Even where the Post Office writes to a postmaster saying they identified an issue that may have caused a shortfall, they make no attempt to pre-populate the form with that issue.
I have heard (but do not know for sure) that the Post Office’s systems and recordkeeping were such a disaster that it in fact has little useful data. If so, it is outrageous that the Post Office expects elderly postmasters to have better recordkeeping than a large corporate, and – if they don’t – that this reduces the compensation they receive.
I put this point to the Post Office. Their reply is as follows:
This is all irrelevant, as it’s about the process after postmasters send in claims. None of it is about the claims themselves. The forms are lengthy and complex, and the key elements (dates, amounts of “shortfalls” repaid) should be in the possession of the Post Office. The onus should not be on the memory of elderly postmasters. The fact it is ensures that claims are for far less than they should be. Nothing in the later processes can fix that initial injustice.
2. Ensure the postmasters don’t receive legal advice when they complete the form
The HSS claim form is in reality a complicated legal claim, and nobody should be completing it without detailed legal advice.
The form itself is fourteen pages, plus eligibility criteria, terms of reference, explanatory notes to the terms of reference, seven pages of consequential loss guidance, and six pages of Q&A. I was a senior partner in one of the largest law firms in the world, and I personally wouldn’t complete the form myself – specialist advice is essential.
That legal advice will need to consider all the facts specific to the individual’s treatment by the Post Office, and the financial, health and reputational consequences over the subsequent years/decades. I understand from discussions with experienced lawyers that, for all but the simplest cases, this would require at least a week’s work by a couple of experienced claimant lawyers, so ballpark fees of £10,000.
Few postmasters could afford anything like that. So how much is the Post Office covering?
Zero.
The Post Office provides no cover for legal costs in completing the form. None. It doesn’t even suggest they should obtain legal advice.
Postmasters are being asked to assert their legal rights, and their legal claims for compensation, without legal advice. The intention was that this would be an informal process for which legal advice would not be necessary. However, that is not remotely how it has worked out.
After the Post Office receives the form, it will send the postmaster a settlement offer. At that point the Post Office will cover some legal costs. But it’s too late – the offer has been framed by the form, and the postmaster received no legal advice in completing the form. And only 10% of postmasters took legal advice even at that late point.5The source for this is that, as of 4 April, 1,924 settlements had been entered into, of which the Post Office had covered legal fees of only 198 (see our FOIA correspondence, linked here). Given the age and limited resources of most of the postmasters, it is reasonable to take from these figures that around 90% of the postmasters had no legal representation.
So aged and vulnerable postmasters applying for compensation are required to complete lengthy and complex legal documentation without legal advice.
Here is the Post Office’s response. They say that applying for the scheme is straightforward. Postmasters disagree, and I think most people (lawyers or laypeople) would share that view.
If I was the Post Office, and someone had submitted a claim for £15.75, I would have thought something was very seriously wrong with the claims process.
3. Write the form to prevent claims for damage to reputation
That complicated form seems designed to limit compensation to financial loss – principally loss of earnings, and the fake accounting “shortfalls” which postmasters were required to repay the Post Office if they wanted to avoid prosecution.
Any lawyer – I think any right-minded person – would say that financial loss is the least of it. Stress, suffering, damage to reputation – all of these should be compensated for. But the form goes out of its way to stop this.
Claimants are surely entitled to compensation for damage to their reputation. In many cases that was significant – everyone in the village where they lived and worked became convinced that the postmaster was a thief, with many postmasters forced to move.
But the design of the form means that claimants are unlikely to realise they can claim for this. Here’s the relevant box:
A lawyer would know this is referring to consequential loss, and would think (amongst other things) about damage to reputation. I doubt many 80-year-old postmasters would do that.
But I suppose a particularly assiduous postmaster might go into the detail of Appendix 1, where we see an acknowledgement that damage to reputation can be included…
… but only where it causes financial loss – which is notoriously hard to quantify.
I paused when I read this, as I wasn’t aware of a legal principle that a person could recover for damage to reputation only where it causes financial loss. I called a few much-more-qualified lawyer contacts. Their answer: there is no such legal principle. The Post Office invented it, to minimise compensation claims.6See the helpful summary set out by Warby J in Barron v Vines, paragraph 21.
I put this point to the Post Office. Their response:
But that is absolutely not what the Post Office’s own guidance says. It says: “Where a postmaster has incurred a financial loss as a result of damage to their reputation, they may be able to claim… The Postmaster would need to explain… why the damage to the postmaster’s reputation caused financial loss”. This is a statement that damage to reputation can only be claimed where a financial loss is incurred, and that is absolutely a misrepresentation of the legal position.
So even if a layperson goes deep into the small print, they won’t realise that they are entitled to compensation for damage to reputation which goes beyond mere financial loss. They have been misled by the Post Office, and that will mean they end up claiming for much less than they should.
Of course, this issue would be spotted by a competent lawyer, but the Post Office ensured that the form would always be completed by an unadvised layperson. So a postmaster would, almost inevitably, claim less compensation than he or she is due.
4. Write the form to minimise compensation for stress
The postmasters spent years and often decades crushed by the experience they’d been through. It’s a level of stress and unhappiness that most of us can fortunately never imagine.
The courts often provide compensation for stress and related psychological injury. If you are wrongly arrested and spend a night in the cells, you’ll receive several thousand pounds compensation. If you are sacked in an unfair or repressive manner, you will receive compensation. So how much compensation are the postmasters receiving for the stress that they suffered?
The Post Office’s HSS claim form contains no indication that postmasters should be claiming for stress. There is one reference in the Q&A provided by the post office:
How is an unrepresented postmaster supposed to even realise what this means?
Most HSS claimants are receiving no more than £5,000. The very top end we’re aware of is one postmaster who had a stroke as a result of the stress of the Post Office’s false allegations, and is receiving £15,000.
To put this in to context, these are the Court guidance for the “vento bands“, which apply to awards for injury to feelings in discrimination claims:
So it seems incomprehensible that any postmaster is receiving compensation for stress of less than £33,000.
5. Write the form to prevent exemplary damages claims
When a wrongdoer causes harm intentionally, recklessly, or with gross negligence, then a court can award “punitive” or “exemplary” damages. This seems a model case where such damages would be awarded – so where on the HSS form is the box for a claimant to assert exemplary damages? Where is that mentioned in the Appendix?
Nowhere.
Both of these omissions would be spotted by a competent lawyer; but are unlikely to be spotted by a layperson. And the Post Office ensured that the form would always be completed by an unadvised layperson. So a postmaster would, almost inevitably, claim less compensation than he or she is due.
This is how the Post Office responded:
Again, this doesn’t address the point – the Post Office’s own form, and (lack of) guidance means that unrepresented postmasters will not make these claims.
And the Post Office appear to be saying that punitive damages have only been offered in malicious prosecution cases, and perhaps not even all of those. That cannot be right.
I would suggest exemplary damages should be the rule, not the exception. It seems beyond doubt that the Post Office acted oppressively and unlawfully (and very plausibly criminally) towards the HSS postmasters.
6. Intimidate postmasters into silence, to stop them discussing their settlement offers with each other, friends, family, or the media
As already reported by us and The Times, each postmaster receiving an HSS offer was warned by the Post Office that legally they were not permitted to mention the compensation terms to anyone. This had consequences. They weren’t able to compare compensation terms with each other. They weren’t able to speak to family or friends (who might have suggested they speak to a lawyer). And they weren’t able to go public about the way they were being treated.
This was the key paragraph in each of the offers:
It’s not true. Postmasters were completely free to show their offers to friends, family and the media. We’ve written more about this here, and referred the Post Office’s legal team to the Solicitors Regulation Authority.
The Post Office refused to respond to this point, saying:
7. Run every possible argument to minimise payouts
The Post Office’s litigation strategy in the 2010s was described by the Court of Appeal as evidencing a “desire to take every point, regardless of quality or consequences”. The Post Office has never apologised for that approach – and seems to be continuing it.
What I’m hearing from postmasters is that the Post Office is running every possible argument to minimise its payouts:
- responding to claims for loss of earnings by arguing that the Post Office would have shut down the Post Office in question under its “transformation programme”, so compensation is limited to the 26 week notice the Post Office typically gives. In strict legal terms that it is a legitimate argument, but (1) it is inconsistent with the informal approach the Post Office should be taking, (2) the Post Office is not running a proper counter-factual but simply asserting the argument, even in cases where the transformation programme would not have applied.
- responded to postmasters who entered bankruptcy by arguing that the bankruptcy was caused by other factors (whilst providing no evidence of what those other factors might be)
The Post Office appears to be completely ignoring Sir Wyn’s initial finding that “normal negotiating tactics often found in hard-fought litigation in the courts should have no place in the administration of any of the schemes for compensation”.
The Post Office’s response to me does not address the key point here – that the Post Office is running aggressive arguments to minimise payouts:
Where it runs these arguments against unrepresented postmasters – and, remember, 90% of postmasters are unrepresented, the Post Office is in my view taking advantage of unrepresented individuals.
8. Provide a token amount to cover a lawyer reviewing the settlement
Once the postmaster sends the form to the Post Office, the Post Office responds with a draft settlement agreement, and the postmaster is invited to sign it. At that point, the Post Office will pay for the postmaster to engage a lawyer.
It’s too late. The advice should have been right at the start, to enable the postmaster to construct their claim in a sensible manner, and work out how much tax is due.
And the Post Office is paying an amount which won’t begin to pay for a lawyer actually looking at the fundamentals of the claim. In a Freedom of Information Act response, the Post Office confirmed to me they have paid 1,924 HSS settlements totalling £62m, but in only 198 cases did they cover legal fees, amounting to £217k (i.e. an average of £1,100 each).7Apparently the Post Office pays £400 for small claims and £1,200 for larger claims.
£1,200 of legal advice (for the few people receiving it) would realistically cover a “sense check” of whether the settlement terms themselves are reasonable. It will not cover an assessment of whether the right amount of compensation is being paid.
So this is a fig leaf which enables the Post Office to tell the world it is paying postmasters to receive legal advice, without taking the consequences of postmasters actually receiving legal advice (i.e. having to pay out the compensation that it realistically should be paying).
Back in August 2022, Sir Wyn’s initial report said that reasonable legal fees should be paid where the Post Office’s initial HSS offer was rejected by a postmaster. The evidence suggests that didn’t happen between August 2022 and April 2023, when a large number of settlements were agreed.
9. Dump the claimants into a complex tax position
The Post Office made no attempt to assist the postmasters’ tax position, and didn’t adjust the compensation upwards to reflect tax. So postmasters ended up losing far too much of their compensation in tax – in some cases up to half.
And it left the postmasters to figure this out on their own. Out of 1,920 settlements, the Post Office paid for postmasters to receive tax advice on precisely two, and a miserly £500 apiece.
This was supposed to be fixed by the Post Office making “top-up” payments to postmasters to cover the tax. But it’s been so slow at doing this that 1,100 postmasters won’t receive a top-up payment in time for the 31 January 2024 tax filing deadline. We wrote more about this here.
What should happen now?
The HSS compensation scheme isn’t fit for purpose, and has become just one more entry in the sordid list of Post Office failures and obfuscations.
Ideally, it would be replaced, but it’s too late for that – out of 2,400 original applications only 23 are awaiting offers, and 200-300 have pending offers. Time is running out for many of the postmasters, and we can’t have more months and years of delay.
So I would let the scheme let it run its course, but establish a quango empowered to review every single Post Office compensation payment, from all the different schemes/settlements, and make whatever additional payments to the postmasters as it thinks is fair and just under all the circumstances. The usual paradigm of legal claims would be replaced with an informal inquisitorial process. It would, of course, be funded by the Post Office (although the Post Office is insolvent, and so ultimately every £ would come from the Government).
And what about the individuals responsible?
It remains to be seen whether individuals will be held to account for having destroyed thousands of lives.
When Sir Wyn’s Inquiry is complete, and his findings published, I hope prosecutions follow against key individuals for perjury and/or perverting the course of justice.
I also hope we see Solicitors Regulation Authority proceedings against the Post Office’s internal and external lawyers. That means the lawyers involved in the original prosecutions, and the lawyers involved in sustaining meritless litigation for years (including those making a hopeless recusal application which they must have known would fail, and was no more than a cynical delaying tactic).
It should also mean Solicitors Regulation Authority proceedings against those lawyers who constructed a compensation process which has the effect of taking advantage of vulnerable people who the Post Office knew were not legally advised.
The compensation process itself is a scandal, and there should be consequences for those involved.
Thanks to Anthony Armitage for his expertise on the SRA Standards, to P and F for their input on the tort law elements of the above, and all the postmasters who have contacted me with their practical experience of the HSS process. And thanks to Tom Witherow and the Daily Mail for their original story which inspired/infuriated me to look into the Post Office scandal in more detail.
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1See below, and the Post Office’s response to allegation number 2
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2I have previously written that this was between 2000 and 2013, but I have now spoken to postmasters who faced false allegations of theft as late as 2017
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3Although important people at the Post Office surely knew well before 2013, albeit that the details of “who knew what when” remain unclear
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4The HSS scheme doesn’t cover the 980+ postmasters who were wrongly convicted, or the 555 postmasters who claimed under the Bates group litigation order (GLO) – and there are certainly others who haven’t claimed under any scheme. So the total number of affected postmasters is unknown, but certainly over 4,000
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5The source for this is that, as of 4 April, 1,924 settlements had been entered into, of which the Post Office had covered legal fees of only 198 (see our FOIA correspondence, linked here). Given the age and limited resources of most of the postmasters, it is reasonable to take from these figures that around 90% of the postmasters had no legal representation.
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6See the helpful summary set out by Warby J in Barron v Vines, paragraph 21.
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7Apparently the Post Office pays £400 for small claims and £1,200 for larger claims.
18 responses to “The Post Office paid £15.75 compensation to one of its victims. Here’s the nine ways they minimise payouts.”
Hi
Very interesting article.
My wife who was a Post Master between 2002 and 2005 and suffered shortfalls of over 25k completed the HSS forms and was eventually offered £20,000 that she accepted in July 2023 as she needed the money and didn’t want to risk losing it if she didn’t.
She has now found out that from July 23 you could dispute the amount of compensation offered and still receive 80% of the offer with no risk of losing this amount whilst your appeal was considered.
Had this been available when my wife was initially made the offer she would have disputed her offer.
It may not be too late – I’d suggest she get in touch with Neil Hudgell of Hudgells Solicitors.
Interesting read. My 79 year old mother is about to embark on the HSS process. We have contacted one of the three primary solicitors involved. Bottom line provide them with the basic details e.g. name & branch and write covering note with hrlelp from friend / family) to start the process. Its not a memory test and the solicitors will guide you through.
Having read a great deal but far from all of the information regarding the Post Office treatment of their Postmasters & Sub Postmaster/Mistresses it is a very sad indictment of all those involved on behalf of POL who’ve shown a complete lack of MORAL compass, PERSONAL Integrity, basic HONESTY and compassion for the people they have persecuted.
The even sadder fact is that all of the attributes I mention have been missing from the upper echelon of society for several decades, usually as a result of GREED the Achilles heel of the human race. Typified by politicians, civil servants, union leaders and all those CEO’s and Directors who have inflated their pay megafold compared with the general work force. I do believe that all of the senior POL staff that were involved in this travesty should face prosecution and where found guilty be given sentences commiserate with the suffering they caused. I also believe that the Senior staff of Fujitsu who were involved in covering up the Horizon faults and were complicit with POL staff in doing so should also face prosecution. Fujitsu as a company should also be party to paying compensation for their software failure that led ultimately led to this whole debacle.
Having read a great deal but far from all of the information regarding the Post Office treatment of their Postmasters & Sub Postmaster/Mistresses it is a very sad indictment of all those involved on behalf of POL who’ve shown a complete lack of MORAL compass, PERSONAL Integrity, basic HONESTY and compassion for the people they have persecuted.
The even sadder fact is that all of the attributes I mention have been missing from the upper echelon of society for several decades, usually as a result of GREED the Achilles heel of the human race. Typified by politicians, civil servants, union leaders and all those CEO’s and Directors who have inflated their pay megafold compared with the general work force. I do believe that all of the senior POL staff that were involved in this travesty should face prosecution and where found guilty be given sentences commiserate with the suffering they caused.
I worked for Post Office Telecoms and after that BT and thought my office was unique in its detachment from normality but watching Stephen Bradshaw’s behaviour I see it was typical.
Is there not a case for a charge of ‘unwarranted demand with menaces’ against the POL employees who, we now know, knew what they were doing: payments were demanded (which were unwarranted) under the threat (menace) of prosecution. 14 years, I believe. That should do the trick. After all, the POL lot are not alone in prioritising themselves above their public duties, ultimately facilitated by Parliament itself, in all its shades, trying to mimic various state departments’ and entities’ proclivity to place maximum distance between themselves and the public with the minimum of accountability.
Even this helpful written explanation is by necessity wordy and extensive. Too much for many I would guess, but I’m grateful to the writer for taking the time to put it down in words.
I’m not a great lover of Amazon, but if I ever need to send anything back to them, the process could not be simpler. They understand customer services and let me remind you, love them or hate them, they are an extremely successful business and lose no money in valuing their customers. My proposal therefore is to put Amazon in charge of this compensation scheme. Had a company like Amazon been involved in the computer system from the outset, and not an air conditioning manufacturer,, we probably wouldn’t be in this mess now.
I’m sorry but this portrays the legal profession in a very poor light. The search for truth seems to be the last thing on anyone’s mind. Do we need lawyers to undertake mandatory scientific training in hypothesis testing, bayesian probability, statistical uncertainty etc.
no, we just need them to behave ethically and in light of their wider obligations to third parties and to uphold the rule of law. I hold the unfashionable view that the great majority of lawyers do!
I find your article utterly amazing and to think that all these learned parties involved, who are not going to escape justice I hope, will be punished accordingly. Personally I do not care If the Post Office goes bankrupt, as there will be a chance to re-invent a true wheel, that can behave as a pillar of society, as we expect of them. As an ex-forces person and now long retired, the programme airing various revelations made it uncomfortable yet very demanding viewing. The real tragedy is all the personal stories of real hardship through no fault of their own. I got a number of medals for being a loyal servant of the government. My wish is that every one of the ex post-masters should apart from having their personal record cleaned from any crime, plus financially compensated to the true and accurate level without being taxed? They should In my opinion also get a CBE commendation for their most loyal and dutiful service.
“.. The compensation process itself is a scandal..” Hopefully, whatever comes out of the current Downing St led process will be significantly better, easier, and inter alia show, hence, that it is (and was) always possible to create a scheme which did not repel people or set up obstacles to claim and fairness. Thanks for your focus and tenacity on this.
Firstly, thank you for doing what you are doing. I am learning a lot from your tax policy heading.
To date I believe that the lawyers (and working on a lower rate) received £46m while the sub postmasters received £12m between them all. Camilla Cavendish suggests that all these enquiries are just a flabby gravy train for lawyers. The COVID enquiry is another example. Juliet Samuel in the Times comments the PO scandal reveals a deeply dysfunctional state whose default mode is stonewalling and obfuscation. It has taken an ITV series to bring it to the attention of all of us. A really sad state of affairs.
I haven’t been following the Covid inquiry, but in this case I believe the Inquiry team are doing an outstanding job, and it’s right they’re properly paid for it.
What is clear and a serious cause for concern is that what happened to the Postmasters and Postmistresses could easily happen again, but affecting a wider section of the community. As more and more computerisation of services, payments becomes the norm, people are waking up to the realisation that ultimately at the press of a button, or change in a string of code, access to their money could be stopped, and they could face years of David v Goliath battling against Companies or Government with limitless funds fighting to resolve the issue. We have seen how not only Fijitsu, the PO, Government ministers have lied, developed “amnesia”, obfuscated at every turn during this scandal and how effectively they deliberately broke the health and wealth of their own people, and that even today not one has shown any remorse. Would you, today, tomorrow, trust the Government and Big Business to run a cashless society with everything reduced to O’s and 1’s in a computer – knowing that no system is hack proof, that all computer systems have a “back door”, that remote access allowing programmers to rottle around and alter/amend without your knowledge – if you answer “Yes” then best of luck, think Trudeau and the Canadian truckers, think how will you manager with no access to money or even proof that you had money, if you still believe that it will all be OK you may find yourself in a minority of one. The State cannot be Trusted to look after anyone.
The sad reality is that no one seems to know how many cases in total there are. We know rough numbers and of course there are different degrees of the persecution inflicted by POL on SPMs, but it seems par for the course that there aren’t more precise numbers. What’s the betting that documentation related to early cases have been shredded?
Dan – one other thing on the form. Almost every single box contains too little space to answer the questions.
Box 25 for example. The question is 80 words long. All of it is double spaced. Having just tried, I can fill in the box with 16 quick brown foxes – or around 150 words. How the hell does someone list nature of one loss, date of that loss, how that loss arose and the size of that loss in 150 words? Let alone two or more?
The whole thing has been designed to make it easier for the post office. Not for anyone else.
Thank you for that Dan.
In addition to my earlier note to you, I would add that a further charge of conspiracy to defraud should be added to the charge sheets of all those who are complicit in this nasty miscarriage of justice. I think Fujitsu have also acted illegally and their executives should also be charged with fraud, deception and perjury. The behaviour of their solicitors also leaves a lot to be desired and I hope they too get their comeuppance.
Whilst the wheels of justice grind exceedingly slowly, they also grind extremely finely.
Time will tell, but as there is a compensation slush fund of circa £1 billion pounds set aside, leaving this to the likes of HSS is not, in my opinion, the way to go.